An Emergency Call-to-Arms

[Skip]

This just came in my email.

An Emergency Call-to-Arms:
A Five-Step Battle Plan for YOUR Future

This is a call to arms to you -- as an American and a custodian of your nation's future. Please act as if your life depends on it -- it well might.

We have been led down a dark, perilous road.

The journey has touched us all, from mothers and fathers burying children in a war over nonexistent WMD, to firefighters and policemen promised vital funds only to be cheated and asked to work for free. Millions of Americans have been cut loose as corporations exploit foreign workers on the cheap and CEOs gorge themselves on riches unprecedented in history. While Americans take second and even third jobs just feed their families, the Bush Administration has poured America's wealth into the greedy hands of defense contractors and tax-dodging megacorporations, notorious companies like (#1 Bush donator Kenneth Lay's) Enron or Cheney's wartime ripoff-artists at Halliburton.

Our environment, safety, economy, national security, labor protection and Constitutionally-guaranteed rights have all been gutted and left to die in a worker-hostile economy.

NOW WE FIGHT BACK.

Here's what we're facing:

This November, the Bush election machine has more than three times the spending power of its opponenets(1)

And they are fighting dirty, just as they did in 2000, when they purged Florida voter rolls(2), rioted to stop recounts(3), barred citizens from voting (ibid) and even threatened the Vice President and his family on their front lawn (4).

This year, through gerrymandering, data theft from Congressional computers, impeachments and recess judicial appointments, they are trying to consolidate their unprecedented power. And they have a special election-season surprise in store for us as well -- as the AFL-CIO argued before the Supreme Court last December(5), the Bushites have MADE IT A CRIME FOR THIRD PARTIES TO CRITICIZE THE PRESIDENT OR SAY THINGS TO INFLUENCE THE ELECTION during the election's most critical phase:

"This blackout will become national in scope on July 31, 30 days before the August 30-September 2 Republican National Convention . . and it will then continue without interruption throughout the remaining 60 days until the November 2 election. Thus, from July 31, 2004 until the election, it will be a crime for a union, corporation, or incorporated non-profit organization to pay to broadcast any 'reference' to the President by 'name,' 'photograph,' 'drawing' or other 'unambiguous' means anywhere in the United States." (6)

They are ruthless, and will not concede victory without a vicious fight. Expect the outlawing of gay marriage to "divide and conquer", marginalize opponents and consolidate support from the religious right, a base estimated to be 30 million strong (7). Expect the Supreme Court to halt recounts again. Expect a "surprise" discovery of WMD even after Blix, David Kay and Iraq's scientists saying they were all destroyed. (8) Expect the "suprise" capture or "destruction" of Bin Laden conveniently close to the election (9). Expect lots of scary terrorism warnings and perhaps even an attack.(10) General Tommy Franks has even suggested a second 9-11-scale attack will lead to martial law in America (11).

None of this should deter you; remember it was the same group (Rumsfeld, Cheney, Baker, Bush Sr., Perle, etc.) that armed and funded Hussein and Bin Laden in the first place. The blood of our dead is therefore on their hands.

We must not underestimate the ruthlessness of those willing to start an international war based on known and transparent lies -- virtually against the will of the entire planet. Make no mistake; they are willing to throw away American lives in their quest for global dominion. And if you rise up and oppose them, you may be bullied, harassed and threatened, perhaps even by the FBI.(12) YOU MUST NOT LET THIS DETER YOU. WE MUST NOT BE BULLIED INTO LETTING THEM SEIZE POWER AGAIN!

And here we come to the deep, dark heart of the matter:

This year 28% of the vote (and counting) will be tallied on electronic voting machines or scanners, which have been repeatedly hacked and can be used to fix an election -- all without a trace. Below you'll find a link to the diagrammed, step-by-step report of how e-vote activist Bev Harris hacked one(13). If you think this is exaggeration, please follow the links listed below, where everything has been well-documented and by the NY Times, the Washington Post, CNN, ABC, CBS, the BBC, etc. (14)

Once paperless, effortlessly hackable (10) voting machines have been installed, the situation will be PERMANENT -- we will never know or be able to prove if an election has been stolen. And if it HAS -- those who have stolen it CAN NEVER BE VOTED OUT. And without the fear of voter reprisal, whoever takes advantage of such a situation could do literally anything they wanted and NEVER LOSE POWER. It will mean the end of Democracy. And if you work for an activist group, it will certainly mean the end of your organization.

We have less than six months to prepare to fight the biggest power grab in human history.

Do your part.

Help save America.

There will not be a second chance.

A 5-STEP BATTLE PLAN:

I. LOBBYING (20 minutes approximately)

Tell your representatives to support Bills H.R.2239, 1986, and ESPECIALLY 2045 (14)

Online e-petitions:
http://www.mediafordemocracy.us/campaign/evote
http://www.truemajority.org/actionregister/
http://action.eff.org/action/index.asp?step=2&item=2821
http://www.verifiedvoting.org
http://www.workingforchange.com/activism/petition.cfm?itemid=14993
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/348035553?ts=1079111375&sign[partner_userID]=304336170&sign[memberID]=304336170&sign[partnerID]=1
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cleanvote.html

Congress
http://www.senate.gov/
Toll free: 1-800-839-5276
http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/

State elections boards
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/htdocs/dcforum/DCForumID29/47.html

State Attorneys General
http://www.naag.org/ag/full_ag_table.php

State Election Officials
http://www.nased.org/

Members, Natl. Assoc. of County Recorders, Election Officials and Clerks
http://www.nacrc.org/leadership/st_coord.htm

Penelope Bonsall, national director of the Office of Election Administration
Office of Election Administration
Federal Election Commission
999 E Street, NW
Washington, DC 20463
vss@fec.gov
(202) 694-1095 (phone)
(202) 219-8500 (fax)

II. MEDIA BLITZ (one to three hours approximately)
Write a ltter and email or fax it to Radio & tv stations, newspapers & magazines in your area:
http://dmoz.org/Arts/Television/News/
http://newslink.org
http://www.cantufind.com/american_newspapers.htm
http://dmoz.org/Arts/Radio/Formats/Talk_Radio/Networks/
http://dmoz.org/Arts/Radio/Formats/Talk_Radio/Stations/
http://dmoz.org/Arts/Television/Networks/Cable/
http://dmoz.org/Arts/Television/Networks/
http://dmoz.org/Computers/Internet/Broadcasting/Information/

National Media Contacts:
CBS Evening News
212-975-3691
evening@cbsnews.com

NBC Nightly News
212-664-4971
nightly@nbc.com

Peter Jennings : ABC World News Tonight
Tel : (212) 456-4025, Fax : (212) 456-2381
PeterJennings@abcnews.com

[Skip]

Washington Post :
abramowitz@washpost.com, colemanm@washpost.com ,
letters@washpost.com , hadarm@washpost.com ,
kingc@washpost.com , milbankd@washpost.com ,

New York Times:
nytnews@nytimes.com, oped@nytimes.com,
president@nytimes.com, publisher@nytimes.com,
society@nytimes.com, washington@nytimes.com,
web-editor@nytimes.com, letters@nytimes.com
USA Today: editor@usatoday.com
Houston Chronicle: viewpoints@chron.com
San Francisco Chronicle: letters@sfchronicle.com
Los Angeles Times: letters@latimes.com
Chicago Tribune: ctc-TribLetter@Tribune.com
Washington Post: letters@washpost.com
Newsday: letters@newsday.com
New York Daily News: voicers@edit.nydailynews.com

CNN HeadLine News executives :
cameron.baird@turner.com, dave.willis@turner.com,
bill.schneider@turner.com ,
james.broyles@turner.com, jason.evans@turner.com,
lou.dobbs@turner.com , moneyline@cnnfn.com ,
kathy.slobogin@turner.com , paul.varian@turner.com ,
judy.fortin@turner.com, bill.galvin@turner.com,
susan.jalali@turner.com, kurt.kasting@turner.com,
tim.mallon@turner.com, wade.mckinney@turner.com,
jerry.mihoch@turner.com, stephanie.minter@turner.com,
dennis.newman@turner.com, alan.schrack@turner.com,
rolando.santos@turner.com, steve.shusman@turner.com,
jennifer.c.thomas@turner.com,

USA Today :
editor@usatoday.com , fanklam@usatoday.com ,
jbacon@usatoday.com , lbranson@usatoday.com ,
dcolton@usatoday.com,

Los Angeles Times :
dean.baquet@latimes.com , op-ed@latimes.com ,
john.carroll@latimes.com , janet.clayton@latimes.com ,
letters@latimes.com , latmag@latimes.com ,
marjorie.miller@latimes.com, john.puerner@latimes.com
james.rainey@latimes.com, bill.stall@latimes.com ,

REUTERS :
michel.gelbart@reuters.com , eddie.evans@reuters.com ,
editor.reuters@reuters.com, daniel.grebler@reuters.com ,
stephen.jukes@reuters.com , reshma.kapadia@reuters.com ,
andrew.mitchell@reuters.com , dick.satran@reuters.com ,
david.schlesinger@reuters.com, eddie.evans@reuters.com ,
washington.daybook.newsroom@re uters.com,
miami.newsroom@reuters.com, michel.gelbart@reuters.com,
boston.newsroom@reuters.com, toronto.newsroom@reuters.com ,
mexicocity.newsroom@reuters.co m ,

Associated Press:
info@ap.org, msilverman@ap.org,
gjohnson@ap.org , hjung@ap.org
tkorte@ap.org , sthomsen@ap.org
etompson@ap.org , ntrott@ap.org
rtanner@ap.org, mtighe@ap.org,
kathleen.carroll@ap.org, dcrary@ap.org,
adinnocenzio@ap.org, jaffleck@ap.org,
mfeldman@ap.org, paula.froke@ap.org,
tfuentez@ap.org, kgazlay@ap.org,
chanley@ap.org, bharpaz@ap.org,
lheinzerling@ap.org, rherschaft@ap.org,
hitalie@ap.org, sjacobsen@ap.org,
ajesdanun@ap.org, tkent@ap.org



III. WITNESS E-VOTE EVALUATIONS (one afternoon)
Ask your elections board (about any e-voting purchase evaluations meetings to be held in your district. As a member of the voting public, it is your legal right to attend as a witness, although, out of convenience, they may try to avoid giving you the information. Insist on your rights.

If you do attend as a witness, you may well be a victim of intimidation tactics. Insist on voter-verified paper ballots. Bev Harris has written comprehensive answers to arguments you will hear. DO NOT BACK DOWN OR BE INTIMIDATED BY CIVIL SERVANTS -- they are your EMPLOYEES, paid by YOUR TAXES:

From Bev Harris, http://www.BlackBoxVoting.Org

Assertion: "Upgrading the printer already in the (Diebold) machine costs money"
Fact: Diebold has stated in writing that their pre-installed internal printers are sufficient to generate a voter-verified paper trail.

Assertion: "The paper is very expensive"
Fact: No, thermal paper is the cheapest made. And with an estimated maximmum of 300 people voting at each touch screen. A LARGE precinct may have seven touch screens, but many have just two or three. It might cost $15 per precinct to print those ballots.

Assertion: "The paper won't last"
Fact: If the report to be by the machine will last the required amount of time, the ballots will too, if printed on the same paper. The printer is there to report totals at the polling place.

Assertion: "the machines will jam"
Fact: The printer is similar to models used in supermarkets and WalMart. Remember: the total number of transactions, will be about 300. Do supermarket and WalMart printers jam every 15 sales? No; They process thousands of printouts without jamming.

Assertion: "the ink will run out"
Fact: There is no ink in a thermal printer

Question: "If a paper ballot record doesn't match a machine record, which is the legal vote?"
Fact: The voter-verified paper must trump the machine unless a mechanical defect or fraud is shown, because it is a physical record seen and verified by thousands of individual voters, whereas the machine is bits and bytes that can be changed by a single technician!

Assertion: "Paper ballot systems have been tampered with"
Fact: Yes, and machines have been frequently wrong as well. Do not allow sidetracking of the discussion or assertions that you are "against electronic voting" -- no, we want them to put paper in a printer and use it for auditing.

Assertion: "Officials won't know what to do with paper ballots and new laws must be written."
Fact: Laws and procedures set up for optical scans are applicable.

Assertion: "A paper trail will only lead to demands for more complicated and stringent auditing"
Fact: Yes, it will. We're asking for that anyway, with optical scanning. It is still be cheap and efficient compared to many of the changes currently being implemented to accomodate the sales of more touchscreen machines.

Question: "Why use machines at all if you're demanding paper ballots?"
Fact: Voting machines are helpful for the visually impaired

Assertion: "Paper ballots prevent the visually impaired from voting"
Facts: Wheelchair-assisted voters can use a touch screen with the same efficiency whether or not there is a paper printout, and the visually-impaired are can be provided with headphones for these machines. Nor does a paper printout hinder their ability to vote.

Alternatives to the Diebold, Sequoia and ES&S machines (operated by heavily partisan CEOs, designed to operate WITHOUT a paper trail, and whose code and components are not allowed to be examined) exist.

Avante Systems has a machine that shows a printout through a glass screen. After the voter confirms it is correct, the paper ballot is droped into a storage box so it can be checked against the machine totals and the AccuPoll system has a scanner that can pass over the printed ballot to verify votes.

Sequioa machines can be attached to normal printers. If your group has some at its disposal, by all means, bring them.

Alternative, secure e-voting machines you can suggest to your elections officials:
http://www.accupoll.com/
http://www.aitechnology.com/avantetech/home.html

IV. VOLUNTEER ELECTIONS MONITORING (three days approximately, including preliminary training)
Vootewatch is organizing election monitor volunteers here:
http://www.votewatch.us/forum/register.php?

Bev Harris has outlined a point-by-point strategy on specifically what to look for when monitoring electronic voting machines. It is also recommended that you either download her free e-book "Black Box Voting", or better yet, purchase it here:
http://www.blackboxvoting.org

From Bev Harris, http://www.BlackBoxVoting.Org

[Skip]

CITIZEN WATCHDOGS: What to look for and report -- Let's get good at this before November!

Optical-scan systems and absentee ballots: We have information that all systems recognize carbon-containing marks (soft lead pencil). Some DO NOT recognize all inks. You may want to bring a soft lead pencil to the polling place with you to mark your optical-scan ballots.

All Diebold counties (AccuVote and AccuTouch are Diebold brands) -- Demand that the poll workers print a report and post a copy at the polling place at the end of the day, whether they are required to or not. All Diebold machines, both touch-screen and optical-scan, contain internal printers and have the ability to print a polling place results report. This takes 60 seconds and costs nothing, and is an important check and balance to compare with the county results from the GEMS system, which we believe to contain security flaws. Votes should not change from the polling place to the county.

Report any instance of mismatched polling place/county tabulations here. Do NOT accept the excuse that they won't match because early votes, absentee, provisional, or challenge votes were added into the polling place totals. That is called "co-mingling" the data and is not an acceptable record-keeping practice. Additional categories of votes must be accounted for as separate line items.

Sequoia touch-screens do not have an internal printer. A printer can easily be hooked up with a serial port. If you see printers, demand a polling place report.

Watch for any "wandering vote tallies" on election night, especially if any votes go DOWN. (Yes, this has been known to happen).

Late poll openings: Report these immediately and we'll try to get cameras there. This is a form of vote suppression, often occurring in minority areas.

Late vote results: Report late incoming tallies. These can be indicative of the county trying to resolve voting machine anomalies before filing reports.

Observe how many cords come in and out of the voting machines. Report any evidence of networking the machines together. Report any time you see more than a simple power cord plugged in while the election is in progress.

Wardrive election sites. See if you can pick up wireless signals either during or after the election. Wireless communication is not permitted. Also, report any use of cell phones for vote transfers, which is also not permitted.

Election workers: Report the procedures used for training if they seem insecure. For example, we have already had reports that in Georgia, some poll workers were told to take voting machines home after training; Georgia flag artwork was uploaded right before the election; and other unwise and insecure procedures were followed.

Go visit the polling place at the end of the day and see how secure it is. We had reports recently of machines left in the polling place unattended.

Felony watch: In some states, IT IS A FELONY for technicians who are not sworn elections officials to touch the vote database in any way, shape or form after votes have been cast. In fact, if you look at Chapter 13 of Black Box Voting, the San Luis Obispo incident was probably illegal (Diebold tech Sophia Lee was tied to a live vote database that appeared on the Internet five hours before the polls closed).

Watch for statistical anomalies. Look at everything. Time is of the essence, as these analyses take some time and there are only a few days before the election is certified.

V. LEGAL CHALLENGES (indeterminate)

Author Lynn Landes has questioned the constitutionality of voting machines.
http://www.ecotalk.org/VotingMachinesUnconstitutional .htm

If your organization has the wherewithal to raise a legal challenge on these (or other grounds) here are some resources below:

Election campaign and civil rights lawyers listed for every city:
http://lawyers.findlaw.com/lawyer/practice/Election%20Campaign%20&%20Political%20Law
http://lawyers.findlaw.com/lawyer/practice/Civil%20Rights

Institute for Justice:
http://www.ij.org/index.shtml

Center for Indiviual Rights:
http://www.cir-usa.org/intakehtml

Class actions:
http://www.bigclassaction.com/civil_rights.html

Southeastern Legal Foundation:
http://southeasternlegal.org/

Electronic Frontier Foundation attorneys:
gwen@eff.org
jason@eff.org
owlswan@eff.org
wendy@eff.org
tien@eff.org
fred@eff.org

Other challenges:
http://www.palmbeachpostcom/localnews/content/auto/epaper/editions/tuesday/local_news_04d49255058760a400d 8.html
http://www.electionguardians.org/actions.htm
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/dieboldlawsuit.pdf

Pax Christi is also organizing an international group of elections monitors. More information here:
http://www.paxchristiusa.org/news_events_more.asp?id=887

REFERENCES

1 (GOP:$115,667,827 ; Dems:$44,175,502).
http://www.opensecrets.org/parties/index.asp

2. Greg Palast, Harper's Magazine "The Great Florida Ex-Con Game"
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=122&row=2

3 a."Unprecedented" -- internet preview of the film
http://wwwunprecedented.org/UnprecedentedPreview.htm

3 b. Lynn Landes: "Mission Impossible - Federal Observers & Voting Machines"
http://www.ecotalk.org/FederalObservers.htm

4. Barabara Walters interview"The Note":
http://wwwfreerepublic.com/focus/f-news/791744/posts

5.McConnell vs the Federal Election Commission
http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/1637/

6. http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0404/hentoff.php

7. "Bush Assures Evangelicals of Commitment to Marriage Amendment"
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/12/politics/12EVAN.html?pagewanted=print&position

8a. Online Journal: "Wag the Osama"
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Commentary/031004Burns/031004burns.html

8b.NewsNet5: "Ridge Sidesteps Question On Bin Laden's Capture"
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/2917298/detail.html

9. U.S. Unloading WMD in Iraq
http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=3/13/2004&Cat=4&Num=011

10. Aljazeera.net: "Purported Al Qaida Statement"
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/2CDD53D6-7AF7-40C7-AF88-32A16072F81B.htm

11. NewsMax: "Tommy Franks: 'Martial Law Will Replace Constitution After Next Terror Attack'"
http://infowars.com/print/ps/franks_martial.htm

12. The New McCarthyism, the Progressive:
http://www.progressive.org/0901/roth0102.html

13. Scoop: "Inside a US Election Vote Counting Program"
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00065.htm

14a. NY Times: "Hack the Vote"
http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/120303A.shtml

b. CBS: "Electronic Voting Causing Concern"
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/03/eveningnews/main591185.shtml

c. UK Independent: "All the President's Votes?"
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1013-01.htm

d. Salon: "Will the Election be Hacked?"
http://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2004/02/09/voting_machines/index_np.html

e. BBC: "Concerns over US Computer Voting"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3489877.stm

f. ABC News: "Avoiding Another Florida Fiasco"
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/SciTech/Voting_machines_040305-1.html

g. "Comparison of Senate Bills 1980, 1986, and 2045"
http://www.verifiedvoting.org/senate_bill_comparison.asp

You are encouraged to distribute this document freely and widely.

Contact: Eric A. Smith, Hot Damn! Design, Tokyo, Japan �œ 81-03-3959-5371
# # #

[Guest]

Spot on Skip, that's a very good analysis of exactly what we can expect from the bushies in the future. The good news is that even lots of Republicans who formerly supported bush have begun to wise up to his spin machine. The last election was 'iffy' - very close. Unless something very unexpected happens before November, bush will have to start waving his magic wand and pray for a miracle to rescue his ass at the last moment. Thanks to his recking the economy and his lies leading us to war, the Democrats will have a much easier time. I can feel the solidarity in the air. :)

[Ono Nadagin]

Sorry I am voting for Bush :D.... but by all means count those votes... and this time include the overseas military vote, if done last time Florida would have been a non issue.

And I must say I find it disturbing that IC has not officially become a ANTI Bush election web site.....

I understand promoting a pro MJ candidate but your obviously promoting an ANTI legalization/decriminalization candidate as none on the upcoming Dem ticket support either legalization/decriminalization.

[BushyOldGrower]

They don't just cheat they kill you if they can get away with it.

Face it...the Republicans have given up on playing fair at all and they know they can't win fairly just like last time.

They have the Supreme Court loaded with gangsters too so whoever has the most money, and cheats the most, will buy the election. Sad to say that good has to be very good to beat the evil republicans. BOG

Florida? lol....... :p

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/57nazibushpic.jpg

[Ono Nadagin]

They don't just cheat they kill you if they can get away with it. ~~ post proof if its fact...

Face it...the Republicans have given up on playing fair at all and they know they can't win fairly just like last time. ~~ If the overseas US military voted was counted Florida would have been a non issue... And even as an issue Fla. was won fairly according to the law...

They have the Supreme Court loaded with gangsters ~~~ uHMMM ... YEAH OK... WHAT EVER YOU SAY :rolleyes:

[Guest]

how can you make it fucking illegal to critisze the president during election time. I hope I get in thrown in jail for a night when I BREAK THAT LAW. Fuck Bush, that twerp is just a symbol of evil, a rallying point for the most fucked minds of the country.

[Ono Nadagin]

Nate, where did bush make it illeagal to critisize the Prez during an election....

If your speaking of Moveon.orgs illeagal activities you should be mad at the dems whom thought up and passed the legislation your now complaining about :)

[Guest]

it will be a crime for a union, corporation, or incorporated non-profit organization to pay to broadcast any 'reference' to the President by 'name,' 'photograph,' 'drawing' or other 'unambiguous' means anywhere in the United States.

I guess wake and bake got the better of me because I thought it applied to all citizens. That's still total bullshit though.

[Ono Nadagin]

Post off topic.

Edited by Skip

[Skip]

Uh, Ono Nadagin,

I don't see ANYWHERE where anyone mentioned moveon.org, except you.

Therefore you are off topic. If you want to discuss moveon.org, you're welcome to start another thread.

Instead you've just spammed this thread with mention after mention of something other than what we are discussing.

Please stay on topic, or explain how attacking moveon.org (http://moveon.org) is going to help defend Bush's illegal activities over the last 3 years?


Thanks,
Skip

[Ono Nadagin]

uhmmm.....

Sorry if I touched a nerve Skip, the discussion was not meant to piss you off.

I mentioned Moveone.org only due o Nate's comments , I now after rereading your posts catch that he was quoting something you posted and that it does relate to the McCain-Feingold bill


how can you make it fucking illegal to critisze the president during election time. I hope I get in thrown in jail for a night when I BREAK THAT LAW. Fuck Bush


I now understand your post was referring to the US supreme court upholding the McCain-Feingold bill in part.... And that your making the assertion that it is the Bush Admin that lvld these restrictions when in all actuality it was voted in by democrats and republicans alike

I am also orry if you felt it was spam, or if you thought I was intentionally trying to take this thread off topic.... I was merely commenting on what had previously been mentioned.

And I see no reason why you should have censored my post, it was an honest response and reply to a comment made by another poster on this thread .... but thats your call to make as webmaster....

Once again, sorry for stepping on your toes, it was not intended

Ono

PS....I would also like to know wich of Bush's activities are or were illeagal......

[Noah]

Bush is a lieing mass-murderer, and should be treated as such. I notice a common trend amount the brainwashed bushhead morons. They can't prove a point without completely twisting the words beyond what was originally intended. You'll notice a simple comment such as "I don't like bush" will be twisted into something like "so you hate all presidents? then why have government at all?". I like the comment about Bush being a rallying point for this countries morons, it is the dead on truth. Without Bush, these christian right-wing wackos would still be in their foxholes, waiting for the next iq-less republican president to come along. It happened with Reagan, It happened with Bush 1, and now it's happening with Hitler 2. Too bad he's a 1 term-er just like his worthless daddy.

[Guest]

Right on Skip, BOG, Nate, Teflon, and Noah... I can think of nothing to add :D

[HellBoy]

Originally posted by Noah
Bush is a lieing mass-murderer, and should be treated as such. I notice a common trend amount the brainwashed bushhead morons. They can't prove a point without completely twisting the words beyond what was originally intended. You'll notice a simple comment such as "I don't like bush" will be twisted into something like "so you hate all presidents? then why have government at all?". I like the comment about Bush being a rallying point for this countries morons, it is the dead on truth. Without Bush, these christian right-wing wackos would still be in their foxholes, waiting for the next iq-less republican president to come along. It happened with Reagan, It happened with Bush 1, and now it's happening with Hitler 2. Too bad he's a 1 term-er just like his worthless daddy.

Noah, taken in it's entirity; your post simply drips for hate and distrust of Bush and all his cronies.... I don't blame you for that. I too believe that Washington is at it's most corrupt point it has EVER been in since the beginning of the Union.

I don't wish to rehash any pro/anti war, Bush, etc... discussions. We have heard it all ad-nauseum anyway...

I WOULD like to remind you, that regardless of how POORLY the decision was arrived at... no matter how many corrupt thieves made millions in the process... IT WOULD BE A GREAT MISTAKE to throw out the baby with the bathwater..

Yes... BUSH is an idiot, liar, and MOST PROBABLY a crimminal as well... (no doubt, there is PLENTY of financial monkey business to be uncovered..)

BUT.... can you not agree that for WHATEVER reason... the Iraqi people are better off WITHOUT Saddam and his band of murderers???

Again... Bush did the RIGHT thing (invasion) for ALL THE WRONG REASONS!!! ...it was a complete ACCIDENT on his part; I'm sure he could care less about the Iraqis....

I'll NEVER be convinced that invading Iraq at the time was a mistake... other than it SHOULD have happened YEARS AGO when Saddam first thumbed his nose at the UN sanctions...

I could care less if the Iraqis have a democracy or not... they should CHOOSE (freely) whatever form of goverment they wish. If they wish to go back to a Dictotorial regime... then that is THEIR choice... at LEAST THEY HAVE ONE NOW!!!!

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/922HellboyAvatarWordYellow.jpg

[Skip]

Originally posted by Ono Nadagin
uhmmm.....

Sorry if I touched a nerve Skip, the discussion was not meant to piss you off.

I mentioned Moveone.org only due o Nate's comments , I now after rereading your posts catch that he was quoting something you posted and that it does relate to the McCain-Feingold bill

I now understand your post was referring to the US supreme court upholding the McCain-Feingold bill in part.... And that your making the assertion that it is the Bush Admin that lvld these restrictions when in all actuality it was voted in by democrats and republicans alike


No, there was NO mention of that bill in my post. Also I was just passing on something I received in email. This is NOT my own writing (of which there is plenty).


I am also orry if you felt it was spam, or if you thought I was intentionally trying to take this thread off topic.... I was merely commenting on what had previously been mentioned.

And I see no reason why you should have censored my post, it was an honest response and reply to a comment made by another poster on this thread .... but thats your call to make as webmaster....

Once again, sorry for stepping on your toes, it was not intended

Ono

PS....I would also like to know wich of Bush's activities are or were illeagal......

Well you completely changed the subject of the thread, on your own, and replied back to your own post with a long one off the subject. That is trolling. That is also STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE for republican apologists to change the subject away from the fact that Bush is a complete loser, and focus on other targets that have nothing to do with our current president.

Guess you just find it impossible to defend all the illegal activities of your president. I wrote out a whole long post late last night but managed to lose it at the last moment (lucky you!).

But no you didn't step on my toes, but if you want to debate, then debate the subject at hand. Want to discuss a different subject, start another thread.

[Skip]

The first illegal activity Bush engaged in was a conspiracy to undermine the US election process. This conspiracy involved the co-opting of those sworn to uphold US justice and act as a balance of power to the other branches of government.

As a result US democracy has been undermined and perhaps permanently damaged - especially in the eyes of MOST Americans and the world.

And that's only the start of his illegal activities.... It's been ongoing since then, and so widespread, the man MUST be brought to justice. Perhaps his staunch support for the death penalty will be part of his future karma played out...

[Ono Nadagin]

No, there was NO mention of that bill in my post. Also I was just passing on something I received in email. This is NOT my own writing (of which there is plenty).

You quoted from ppl commenting on it and linked to articles you copied from, and those links discuss the McCain-Feingold bill ......

This year, through gerrymandering, data theft from Congressional computers, impeachments and recess judicial appointments, they are trying to consolidate their unprecedented power. And they have a special election-season surprise in store for us as well -- as the AFL-CIO argued before the Supreme Court last December(5), the Bushites have MADE IT A CRIME FOR THIRD PARTIES TO CRITICIZE THE PRESIDENT OR SAY THINGS TO INFLUENCE THE ELECTION during the election's most critical phase:

"This blackout will become national in scope on July 31, 30 days before the August 30-September 2 Republican National Convention . . and it will then continue without interruption throughout the remaining 60 days until the November 2 election. Thus, from July 31, 2004 until the election, it will be a crime for a union, corporation, or incorporated non-profit organization to pay to broadcast any 'reference' to the President by 'name,' 'photograph,' 'drawing' or other 'unambiguous' means anywhere in the United States." (6)

You post a bunch of reference links and this one has a (5) & (6)next to it seemingly assigning it to ref the quotes you posted below it further down in your thread.

(5)
http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/1637/

or (6)

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0404/hentoff.php

Both of wich deal with the the McCain-Feingold bill and the democratic response to the Supreme Court upholding portions of the bill wich was a bill originally thought up and pushed for by a democraticly held house and senate during the Clinton admin.

So, I think I am correct and your sir are incorrect... There is a referrence of the McCain-Feingold bill in your post, there for making it an on topic discussion.

Well you completely changed the subject of the thread, on your own, and replied back to your own post with a long one off the subject. That is trolling. That is also STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE for republican apologists to change the subject away from the fact that Bush is a complete loser, and focus on other targets that have nothing to do with our current president.

I have just proven I DID NOT change the subject of the thread at all, I merely was countering the points you laid forth in the original post and the links you used to support your point of vew/adgenda....

That is not trolling it is intelligent discussion/arguement/rebutal.....

And your correct it is the standard Republican operating proceedure to to have intelligent discussions and arguements and rebute incorrect points/opinions.... But your inocrrect once again when you label it 'changing the subject'.

I think I have proven I was on subject and did want to debate.... but your seemingly unwilling to let me, or you yourself dont know what you have posted about as I was completely on topic with things you quoted or said yourself


Skip............. show me some law he broke or proof of the conspiracy and lets get the trial started... iif you cant prove he broke a law it is all just hearsay & spin..........

[BushyOldGrower]

And really he is just confused. You see Skip most americans are still a ways from believing all the things you already believe about Bush. The truth is starting to come out though.

Skip, I love ya but you gotta realize that you thread really angers some folks who have supported Bush. We were horribly attacked and you need to realize that Ono is not alone in his opinions. He makes pretty good arguments for the "evil side" as we see it and we need his opposition point of view so that we can make our points. This was your thread so you shouldn't moderate it just to be extra fair.

Gunny pointed this out to us all recently in the mods forum.

Skip even goes a bit far for me here but let us all remember to allow as much divergence of opinion as possible and to remain civil at all times. I know Ono can be a pain but if he is a troll he is as good as Krusty or me.

Don't anyone take offense from what I have said because we all have 2 things in common. We all have an a opinion and an asshole and both stink some... ;) BOG

[SmokeyMountains]

Perhaps his staunch support for the death penalty will be part of his future karma played out...
Well said Skip, being that I never looked at it that way....I feel better already.

[Ono Nadagin]

Bog, you are correct, I am a pain..... If you ask my wife, she can tell you where ;)

[riahgorf_1]

First off, cheers Ono for having the stones to stand up and be a republican on a pot forum!
I too am a registered Rep. althought I have considered re-registering as Ind. BUT..... I for one am glad that we had GW as Pres. when we did because if Gore or some other Dem had been in office I truely believe the planes could have just kept raining down.
You know what? The Iraqi's are much better off now too, vandetta or no they are better off. Just ask the troops who have been over there.
Do you hardore anti-bush guys support our troops? Just curious.

peace

fr0g :frog:

[HellBoy]

I support the troops. They are mostly just boys out of high-school... hardly men... not allowed to drink legally... yet asked to go in harms way to save innocents from persecution (OR STEAL OIL... depending on your POLITICS!)...

I watched a Discovery special tonight called "Irag, One Year Later"... I HIGHLY recommend it! It gave me great pause to see some of the scenes as seen directly from the eyes and cameras of the worlds reporters...

Discovery channel did an EXCELLENT job of applying NO SPIN WHATSOEVER!!!! ...they simply reported the exact interviews and pictures and videos taken during the war.

... I cannot describe how MACBRE a scene was that a female reporter observed...

During the huge initial celebration of the toppling of Saddams iron statue in the sqare, this reporter was at a nearby field hospital or local clinic... not shure which... VIEWING the stream of casualties coming IN FOR TREATMENT..as the city celebrated outside.

..a little girl with no left arm... in another scene, a 7 yr old boy and several of his aunts and sisters shot to death while mindlessly running a checkpoint...no guns..no bombs... just girls and kids....

The reporters brought the true horror of what war means right up close and personal into your face.... certainly, invasion for whatever noble cause (or dastardly thievery)... causes untold horror to innocent lives.

However, the reporters ALSO brought back the indisputable videos and photographs and documentaion of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of political executions and exterminations perpetrated by Saddam and his Basque Ruling party. The horror of this satan on earth is absolutely mind-numbing to contemplate!

..and herein lies the rub..

There are clearly two MAIN factions in Irag (not considering politics in particular)... those who wish to be free to choose for themselves... and that would be the everyday man of Iraq... just a guy with a wife and couple of kids trying to make it... no ambition.. just wants to LIVE.


AND THEN you have those who wish to DICTATE rigid law and punishment and will stop at NOTHING to gain their ends.... this would be the extremist terrorists... if we lose to them in IRAQ.. the war on terror is LOST and the world will be under the thumb of the bombers...

Everyone knows (the WHOLE WORLD KNOWS IT) that Iraq is the "center" of the World War on Terror... if the terrorists succeed in bombing the Spanish out of Iraq... it will only encourage them to go after others.

I laughed somewhat spitefully on hearing the news of Franch being SEVERELY threatened with violence because of a slight mis-step they made with PUBLIC SCHOOL POLICY IN FRANCE!

hahaha... the French thought they got the "free ride" from terror threats by being totally against the US and it's allies.... and then some lamer politico gets a law passed that kids can't wear religious robes and turbans and whatever to school..

..the Jews and Shieks and Catholics were all ok with it... but NOOOOO .... this is an INSULT to ISLAM!!!

HOLY WAR ON FRANCE!!!

...trrrillliiiilliilitttrrrill iriiillriirjrj (..you know that funny tounge noise they make for a battle cry!) :D

..sorry... it's NOT FUNNY. It is serious... and if you think the Islamic Holy War does not aim a world domination and the enslavement of ALL ppl ... you have been smoking too much of the ganga...

...grow up... buy a clue! You lives are at stake.

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/922HellboyAvatarWordYellow.jpg

[cooked cook]

Caution, opinion ahead....
I think that ANY pot smoker that is voting for Bush is making a mistake that may end up coming around to bite them, especially if they grow. I expect that Bush and company(especially his boy Asscroft) will only get more serious about the drug war. The Patriot Act was the first step, and there are more on the drawing board. With the DOJ pushing for more rights for law enforcement and less rights for the individual, it will only become more common for the armed goons to kick in your door over some "questionably obtained evidnence".
Who knows...maybe Bushie will come out and say he's pro-pot during the election...yeah right. Kinda like how he claimed he would back states' rights for the MMJ issue during the last election. Of course, as soon as he was elected medical users and providers started gettin popped. Oh, and I won't even get into "operation arrest bong vendors" .
Nah, this administration has told me I'm a terrorist for buying a sack. I'll be sure to terrorize their asses in the voting booth.
cook

[Ono Nadagin]

Hmmm lets see

Vote For Bush whom is anti MJ law reform, but will take the fight to the ppl that have through their zealousy sworn to kill every american possible until they get what they want

Or

Vote for Jerry whom is also anti MJ law reform and is willing to bow to the Terrorists that demand we do what they want or they wont stop killing as many Americans as possible until they get what they want............

Until they want something else and start murdering Americans and other nationalities again, because they have seen that the tactic works.

Hmmmmmmmmm......

Lets see....

A vote for Bush equals no MJ Law reform

A vote for Kerry equals no MJ Law reform

A vote for anyone else equals no MJ law reform as we all know only one person from the 2 major parties has a chance of winning the election

Ill go with Bush till we get the terrorists stopped.

And then worry about how MJ laws effect 'myself' and reforming MJ laws once our country and the world are free of ppl whom think they can hold the contries of the world hostage in terror, murdering ppl as they seem fit until they get their way of the day fufilled.

[BenitoCereno]

I am more afraid of the police kicking my door in than I am of "The Terrorists."

I have been mistreated more by the ruling-class than I have ever by any islamic fundamentalist and I live in an area that has extremely high probablity of another attack.

America works because of fear.

But what do I know, I'm just here to talk about Pot.

[Ono Nadagin]

Ok, if you wish to mbe more fightened of the police kicking in your door to arrest you that you are of a group of ppl that have publicly sworn to kill you, thats your choice.............


All I can suggest is hide your grow well, dont grow where you live, dont tell anyone that you grow and use the internet with intelligence and hie yourself while using it.....

By doing these you you can minimalize your chances of having your door kicked in....


But what do you do to minimize the dangers of those willing to strap on a bomb then blow themselves and many around them up in a public area.... or how do you protect yourself from them driving a car bomb up next to your building and blowing it and you up...... or How do you stop them from setting off a dirty bomb in a major town or flying another plain into a building, in an attempt to sway the will of your nation and your government to bow to their wishes through terror?


Hard choices must be made

[Guest]

And Bush scare's me more than OBL does
America is reletivly new to terrorism the UK and Europe are old hat's at it now

Removing Sadam was a good move but why lie about the reason's
the American Government has managed to get to the stage
where the right's of the individual don't matter
it's all about the state and there wishes

it's called the Patriot Act

[BushyOldGrower]

I love you all. The world is full of shit.

Fascinating to watch because truth is truly stranger than fiction at least on this planet.

The problem with Ono is that he represents almost half of the Americans point of view.

Sadly, the belief that only the Bush can keep them safe makes them lose all reason. Debate and arguement can go on forever but it won't change anyones opinions really.

Unless you are very young you chose sides long ago and we never admit to having been wrong all our life. Neigher Ono, or I will want to do that. We all think we are right or we wouldn't think it. :p

Ono can be seen as argumentative and he is but he is for real and he believes his statements. If anyone finds his arguements vexing then remember his name but that doesn't make him a troll. If he is a troll his heart is still in the right place and his words are governed by his inner goodness.

Many people have been blinded by the right all over the world. Luckily Spain has seen the light. We can think about peace if we just change a few of our policies and restore leadership to the U.N. America has fumbled the ball and now we will need a new leader as will the world because bush is just a shrub and he will be a repeat of his lame daddy. BOG :)

[Ono Nadagin]

He seems do be doing a good job here, and exactly when was he put incharge of the homeland security of Spain..... I must have missed that in the news.

And as to why it happend, it appears as if Al Queada murdered hundreds of ppl in Madrid prior to a national election in an attempts to kill as many ppl and sway governments into bowing to their will.... You must have missed my mentioning of that as their goals earlier in this post

[BushyOldGrower]

Aside from any differences we may have what will happen if lots of our allies get hit? Will their people blame america or alqaeda?

I know it isn't reasonable but considering how Bush strong armed other gov'ts to help in Iraq he may be seen as having some responcibility for their defense.

Any hit on any of our allies can bring some responcibility back to Bush and the USA. I know it's a war but we need to win it and we can't if we go it alone. Imagine the possible backlash if Al Qaeda so easily outmaneuvers us in world opinions! :eek:

And perhaps you feel I add to the perception that Bush is to blame but I know we didn't bomb our own buildings or Spains trains so I an not a total conspiratorial but...

You stated that Bush has kept america safe. I wonder if he has kept us from knowing about the sucessful attacks on us since 911. You know the third year of natl emergency powers were granted again to Bush so he still has special powers.

I always felt the airbus over NYC after 911 was a terrorist bomb. The crash was never adequately investigated and the crash was taken from the NTSB and given to Nasa by the feds to investigate. Evidently the story now is that some wind blew the tail off.

Then there is that power outage we stated started in canada but it was really Cleveland? Couldn't that have been the terrorists? We don't really know and so damage control and lies could be as much a part of natl security as bush's phony war for oil was. BOG

[Guest]

Living in Europe and having cable tv gives me an insight to what the american government tells it's people

CNN & NBC and the rest of them showed a very sanitised view of the war itself
the American government was furious that the BBC showed
a report when there reporter traveling with the American Special forces in northen Iraq
came under fire and Kurdish leader's, American Special forces and two reporters were killed
by American plane's and precision bomb's
with American troop's screaming into radio's to call off the attack

the American defence forces tried to get the report burried
but the reporter refused to hand over the tape's
they even asked the Brittish government to stop the broadcast

America Uses it's influence to drag other countrys in that didn't want to be there
in the name of a common goal and American companies cream off the profits from the contracts to re build Iraq

Bush didn't do it to stop Terrorism he did it for oil money

[phillykid]

First off this republican vs democrat issue just isn't pertinant. They are the same freakin party. I would be in favor of a republican....a REAL republican. One who is for smaller federal government, more power to the states. Strong defense and tax cuts. Is Bush a republican? He wants to increase the size of federal government with homeland security office, also his no child left behind program (I thought education is a STATE issue not FEDERAL), also the change to medicare.
A real democrat is for tax hikes and social programs.
Basically the 2 parties are nolonger the separate entites neccessary to balance the country. Republicans are supposed to be supporters of less government control. They want those who are working to take home more of their paycheck and they don't want a bunch of taxes to pay for stuff like welfare and the poor. Democrats are supposed to spend the money, they are to the left, more socialist. Their idea is that we are responsible for one another, they take the taxes from those that make money to pay for programs to benefit the poor. We need both and have neither.

Before you all start lovin Kerry. He now talks all this crap about how the war was wrong, Bush is a liar ....then why did he vote for the war. He had his chance to voice his opinion with his vote, he had a chance to do something and didn't, and now , when it doesn't matter, when it's already done, now is when he talks. I may not like Bush (and I don't) but at least he has the balls to pick a path and follow it even if others disagree (this is both good and bad). We gave Saddam a million chances to come clean, he gave the UN inspectors the run around, what were we supposed to think? Were we supposed to give him a million more? He invaded Kuwait, we should have taken care of him there and ousted him. Bush senior didn't, why? Because the UN wouldn't allow him to.

As for corporations and the wealthy, I hear everyone talking about how they suck and evil greedy corporations. The top 1% pay for over 50% of the taxes in this country. Corporations like walmart wouldn't get that big if people didn't shop there. They shop there cause it's cheaper due to lower overhead. I'm sure there'd be just as many complaints if they were abolished and people had to pay 10 bucks for some Tide detergent. Corporations also provide the majority of jobs in the US. Those in the US making over 100,000 pay almost 45% of that in taxes, those in the middle class pay about 25%.

I don't like Bush, I don't like Kerry they are both tools. The patriot act is BS as are the Amber act and rave act. Oh yeah for those staunch democrats out there, during the 90's (clinton admin) we were bombing the living heck outta Iraq. Last count we had decimated over 500,000 including women and children. During the Columbine occurace we were bombing Kosovo killing mad people over there as well.

As you can see, i have no idea who to vote for lol. With Bush I'd get some idiot asshole who says some dumb crap and does dumb crap. With Kerry I'd get some idiot asshole who says dumb crap and then decides to do some other dumb crap. I'm in favor of REAL Republicans and REAL democrats doing their damn jobs.

Peace
PK

[6x70]

I ask all of you left wingers to answer one question for me...What has the Democratic party done in the last 40 years that has worked......................?

[HerbCultivator]

i ask you a similar thing. when was the last time something the republicains did anything that worked.

:rolleyes:
they both suck.
expand yourselves past the silly old ping pong game. but toss bush 1st before he starts another holy war because he was cialected

If americains actually voted we might be in better times.

you only live in a democracy if you vote. if you don't excerrcise your rights they will be gladly and easliy removed.

[HellBoy]

Originally posted by phillykid
First off this republican vs democrat issue just isn't pertinant. They are the same freakin party. I would be in favor of a republican....a REAL republican. One who is for smaller federal government, more power to the states. Strong defense and tax cuts. Is Bush a republican? He wants to increase the size of federal government with homeland security office, also his no child left behind program (I thought education is a STATE issue not FEDERAL), also the change to medicare.
A real democrat is for tax hikes and social programs.
Basically the 2 parties are nolonger the separate entites neccessary to balance the country. Republicans are supposed to be supporters of less government control. They want those who are working to take home more of their paycheck and they don't want a bunch of taxes to pay for stuff like welfare and the poor. Democrats are supposed to spend the money, they are to the left, more socialist. Their idea is that we are responsible for one another, they take the taxes from those that make money to pay for programs to benefit the poor. We need both and have neither.

Before you all start lovin Kerry. He now talks all this crap about how the war was wrong, Bush is a liar ....then why did he vote for the war. He had his chance to voice his opinion with his vote, he had a chance to do something and didn't, and now , when it doesn't matter, when it's already done, now is when he talks. I may not like Bush (and I don't) but at least he has the balls to pick a path and follow it even if others disagree (this is both good and bad). We gave Saddam a million chances to come clean, he gave the UN inspectors the run around, what were we supposed to think? Were we supposed to give him a million more? He invaded Kuwait, we should have taken care of him there and ousted him. Bush senior didn't, why? Because the UN wouldn't allow him to.

As for corporations and the wealthy, I hear everyone talking about how they suck and evil greedy corporations. The top 1% pay for over 50% of the taxes in this country. Corporations like walmart wouldn't get that big if people didn't shop there. They shop there cause it's cheaper due to lower overhead. I'm sure there'd be just as many complaints if they were abolished and people had to pay 10 bucks for some Tide detergent. Corporations also provide the majority of jobs in the US. Those in the US making over 100,000 pay almost 45% of that in taxes, those in the middle class pay about 25%.

I don't like Bush, I don't like Kerry they are both tools. The patriot act is BS as are the Amber act and rave act. Oh yeah for those staunch democrats out there, during the 90's (clinton admin) we were bombing the living heck outta Iraq. Last count we had decimated over 500,000 including women and children. During the Columbine occurace we were bombing Kosovo killing mad people over there as well.

As you can see, i have no idea who to vote for lol. With Bush I'd get some idiot asshole who says some dumb crap and does dumb crap. With Kerry I'd get some idiot asshole who says dumb crap and then decides to do some other dumb crap. I'm in favor of REAL Republicans and REAL democrats doing their damn jobs.

Peace
PK

... DAMN... I wish I HAD SAID THAT!!! ^^^^ ..nice one, kid! :D

btw, I hate it when Bush is referred to as a "TEXAN" .... him and all his inbred family are yankees from Kennybunkport, Maine. They are just carpet-baggers that brought their "money" and influence to the south...

REAL Texans spit and curse when "Dubya" puts on that stupid cowboy hat!!! :mad:

This is a good thread. Whether or not you are in agreement or disagreement with any opinion is not important. What is important is that we all are socially aware enough to examine such difficult issues.... for the most part... in a civilized manner.

It is imperative that War and death never become "Business-As-Usual" .... we SHOULD keep each other honest!

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/922HellboyAvatarWordYellow.jpg

[cooked cook]

>I ask all of you left wingers to answer one question for me...What has the Democratic party done in the last 40 years that has worked......................?

Clinton paid the hell outa the national deficit. The biggest reduction in our National debt EVER. Gor the first time, we heard the word budget used next to the word surplus. Naturally Bush thought this was wrong, and shot it all to hell by giving tax cuts to the rich, which unfortunately doesn't include this cook. You guys wealthy or corporation owners?

[ken]

didnt the us have an economy under Clinton?

where did that go?

[phillykid]

The economy goes in cycles, Clinton lucked out on being the president during the tech stock boom, he was just lucky. Hey, I like Clinton, I voted for the guy and I think he did a good job and had an amazing amount of Charisma, I also think that he was the only president who spoke to both minorities and white america. But he also sent planes to bomb iraq, we just didn't hear as much about it cause we weren't affected and it wasn't a "war". it was just us dropping bomb after bomb and imposing trade sanctions which killed over a half million Iraqis. If anyone had been president at that time there'd be a surplus. Besides, Bush and clinton as well as any other president has a cabinet and economic advisors. It's not like they're sitting up all night balancing numbers and figuring out our economy, most of them wouldn't have the background in economics like a Greenspan would.
We were due for a recession due to the boom. And also, economic changes lag behind policy formation. We hit the recession just as Bush got into office, before he could implement policy, which means, if ya wanna blame anyone, it's Clinton. The recession just got worse as a result of 9/11 destroying investor confidence. My biggest economic issue with Bush is that he ships jobs overseas and he's weak on immigration.
Peace
PK

[BushyOldGrower]

He was respected as a world leader unlike Bush.

His balanced budget proposal is why the economy took off and the defecits are the reason the long term for business doesn't look good. We all know the tax cuts were a bit irresponsible of Bush given his penchant for spending.

I see the Democrats as the fiscally responcible party over the past 10 years or so and the Republicans always try to take the credit for anything good but they do nothing but slow progress in my humble opinion. BOG :)

[phillykid]

Okay maybe clinton wasn't all lucky, yes I agree with you BOG, he was a good world leader.
As for why the economy took off. I graduated highschool in the mid 90's (yeah I'm young) at that time a handful of people had dial up internet connection. Today, I heard a study, 75% of people in the US have internet connection. i believe that that had a lot more to do with the economy than who was president (unless you believe that Al Gore really did invent the internet lol). How many new businesses opened up because of the internet, how many computer tech jobs did it create. Look at all the stores online. It opened up a whole new way to do business and opened up whole new businesses as well, from servers, service providers, web page designers, IT professionals etc. Clinton would have had actually had a harder time stopping the economy from growing. You could've had a monkey in office and unemployment would've dropped, the economy would have grown and people would've been making more.
The internet is a multi billion dollar industry that rose within 10 years, doncha think that may have had a hand in things? Besides, Clinton was the only democratic president in the last 10 years.
Nice to have a disagreement without things getting ugly though.
Respectfully yours
PK

BTW I thank god for the internet, man has it made learning how to grow weed and get seeds so much easier ...lol.