THCA VS THC

[Sam_Skunkman]

Anyone out there think that THCA is as strong as THC?
When you eat it?
THCA is found in herb or resin that is unheated.
THC is the decarboxylated THCA, it has been heated or cooked or smoked.

 

[Truthman]

Why would you ask a question when most can't answer because they haven't tried it by ITSELF?.

Ask about eating raw herb or hash with avocado and lemon juice or with nuts or maybe just with food that had fat in it and then maybe you will get a proper calculation. Just being tricky with words by saying thc is thca in raw form is Pseudoscience.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Well I am glad you know what real science is, and what I SHOULD ASK, the question is if you eat raw herb or resin will it get you as high as the same weight of the same decarboxylated herb or resin?
I say herb needs to be decarboxylated from THCA, the plant made acid form of THC, to be active. If you agree then vote NO because then like me you think THC is stronger then THCA.
Just eat a raw gram or two then the next time the exact same weight baked or cooked into food and say which gets you higher. For me it is the cooked bud or resin, no question.

-SamS

 

[Guest]

Sam could you please briefly explain the difference between THCA and THC?

Let me see if I'm understanding what you're getting at here - that the plant produces THCA from CBG and possibly also CBC, and that THCA is psychoactive. However, when cooked or baked, the THC changes in nature and becomes more psychoactive? I take it that the baking/cooking process is decarboxylating the THCA into THC? Does a similar process occur when herb is smoked?

If THCA decarboxylated into THC is more psychoactive and thus subjectively more potent to the imbiber, does this mean that heating resin powder while pressing it into hash will increase it's potency?

By asking this question in this manner, are you trying to gauge the level of ignorance of us growers and tokers in general? I reckon there are probably only 3-4 people on this entire forum who have sufficient knowledge of biological chemistry to fully understand this and I'm, not one of them! lol

 

[RottenDawg]

Not a scientist here, so no scientific terminology. I have been in the field, so to speak, for many years and have done a fair amount of research. From my understanding to become psychoactive the THC(A?) in a plant has to be heated to something like 350º-425º F; can't remember the exact temperature. Now the acids in our stomach also act as a heating/converting agent so digestion also converts the THC(A?) in a plant to become psychoactive if eaten raw. So the question is does heating the THC(A?) in the plant first make it more psychoactive? I think heating/cooking with it first makes it more readily and immediately available, psychoactive speaking. Cooking first is better, no question, to benefit from the medicinal quality marijuana has to offer (get high). So I agree with Sam...

I personally make butter which heats the THC but not quite to the temp. needed to make it psychoactive. *Remember to simmer NOT boil. Then the butter is used in a recipe, usually brownies. Durring the baking process is where the conversion to "psychoactive" happens. These brownies, by the way, are the ONLY thing that I've found to relieve arthritis agony/pain for me when driving long distances. Truly a gift from god! My 2¢. Peace...........RD

 

[Guest]

I always thought that the reason why eating cannabis s often more psychoactive and 'trippy' than smoking it is because the liver metabolises the delta-9 THC into a different form of THC which has a more psychedelic effect.

I believe the vapour point of THC is 185 degrees celsius as that is what vapourisers use, so any cooking/baking process needs to avoid heating the THC to that point otherwise it will vapourise and be lost into the air.

 

[ngakpa]

Sam could you please briefly explain the difference between THCA and THC?

Let me see if I'm understanding what you're getting at here - that the plant produces THCA from CBG and possibly also CBC, and that THCA is psychoactive. However, when cooked or baked, the THC changes in nature and becomes more psychoactive? I take it that the baking/cooking process is decarboxylating the THCA into THC? Does a similar process occur when herb is smoked?

If THCA decarboxylated into THC is more psychoactive and thus subjectively more potent to the imbiber, does this mean that heating resin powder while pressing it into hash will increase it's potency?

By asking this question in this manner, are you trying to gauge the level of ignorance of us growers and tokers in general? I reckon there are probably only 3-4 people on this entire forum who have sufficient knowledge of biological chemistry to fully understand this and I'm, not one of them! lol

thc = tetrahyrdocannabinol
thca = tetrahydrocannabinol carboxylic acid

heating it in oil/fat entails what is known in chemistry as "reduction" (as opposed to oxidation) removing the COOH (carboxylic acid) group from the THC

I reckon heating hashish correctly makes it stronger... cf. Mriko's saying "heat is a friend of THC"

and cf. the way tobacco addicted charas smokers in places like Pakistan smoke - by first molding garda (if they are lucky enough to have it) by hand into smokeable charas, then holding the piece of prepared charas between two flaming matches or molding it onto the headless end of one match and holding a lit one beneath ... the charas is heated till it takes flame briefly and blown out then dropped into a bed of tobacco where it mingles seamlessly with the tobacco

a joint made like this is far stronger and more tasty than the same weight of garda smoked as a joint... garda is not in the opinion of smokers in CAsia any good for smoking as it is - it needs to be worked into charas/hashish to get 1. the full flavour 2. the strength ... the heating process is not simply a way to get the hash and tobacco to mingle, it's also I think about reducing any oxidised THC and so on back to active forms

I think there is more going on here than simply a way to get round the lower temp a cigarette of hash burns at than that a chillum burns at

common sense might say that heating like this would oxidise the THC - but not so it seems, there must be other things going on... no doubt there are books and articles out there explaining why this is

Ngakpa

 

[Guest]

Interesting indeed ngakpa. I have noticed that fresh resin powder is not as potent as that which has been pressed and heated then stored and cured.

 

[ureapwhatusow]

i prefer to boil my oil/solvent mixture as detailed in cannabis alchemy by d.golld and always felt it was more potent than making it without boiling

the book claims that the boiling process can convert enough precursors to THC that in the end it an be effectively 10x as potent (depending on variables) when eaten after boiling than before.

the same theory held true in smoking

ALSO the book made an intersting point, that the precursors to THC such as THCA, CBG and CBC could in fact dilute the THC experience with their own effects

 

[Truthman]

These are people who TRIED what I was talking about on ic. I know you're going to find a way to discredit them also but just something for others to view

BTW, notice how all three were using different forms of cannabis such as raw and not concentrated, kief, and hashish:

http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?...ghlight=avocado

Jon:"Just try it. It's something about the avocado and herb together. I had some really bad arthritic pain so I took half a gram of herb, grounded and mixed with a half of an avocado with some lemon squeezed into it ate it and was lit."

http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?...ghlight=avocado

British_Bulldog:"Well, I tried eating about a quarter of a gram of top quality commercial hash last night with an avocado.

It wasn't exactly a scientific test, because I'd already had a pizza, which although Italian and with less cheese than an American pizza, it had fat from the cheese and also probably some extra virgin olive oil in there too.

So, the pizza could've/should've had an influence too on the effect, but basically I got very high, then wasted and it ended up knocking me out into a coma-like state...I ate it at around 7pm, felt the high properly by about 8.30pm, and crashed out and fell asleep on the sofa around 11pm. I woke up at 6am with ravenous munchies and ate for about an hour before falling asleep again until 10am, still stoned, laughing to myself about some stuff in the shower, still had red eye, had a bong, put some eye drops in and then went to work, lol

All in all good but I'd like to have stayed awake a bit longer...the high also seemed more profound with the avocado, but further testing is required lol"

http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?...ghlight=avocado

FrankRizzo:"I added a few grams of keif to a similar guac recipe I make. I just through it in there. I actually really liked the quac and ate the whole thing at once. Slept for over 16 hours."

It's a new era Sam and the other elders and we know more than we did before and just saying your way is right when others say it isn't based on experience is very backwards when you are a scientist or believe in it.

Anyway, have fun doing things your way. I still appreciate some of your knowledge. Peace.

 

[Truthman]

BTW, for those who don't want to get the lethargic effect due to certain reasons a good way to prevent this is to drink a strong tea with some honey and if you are still high throughout the day/night which is a good possibility, keep drinking grape juice, orange juice with the pulp, pomegranate juice, or if you have to apple juice. These juices will keep you from bugging out if it's too strong while also keeping the high enjoyable and keeping you from passing out.

The real secret to prevent the sleepiness is eating the herb in the daytime along with the methods above because daylight inhibits melatonin from being released and when you eat herb A LOT of melatonin is released. So if you eat at night even more is released so eating in the day, as long as you are getting sunlight, along with the teas and juices helps solve this problem. Peace.

 

[Guest]

Okay, anyone got any detailed info on heating techniques to increase potency? I'm going to be making QWISO soon and would like to try an experiment. I will make one batch of QWISO with my usual technique where I purge it slowly over a pan of hot water for a few hours, and another batch where I heat it more highly, see if it does increase potency.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

All you have to do is heat Cannabis or resin in oil or ghee for about 15 minutes, I use a double boiler, the herb pan in a pot of boiling water. This will decarboxylate the THCA to THC and make it much more active. Smoking decarboxylates the THCA.

Ganja Pasha,
THCA is not very active. Some of the THCA may get decarboxylated in the stomach but not most of it or all of it. It needs to be heated. If you purge over hot water it may decarboxylate the THCA.

Truthman,
I see you found three people that agree that THCA gets you high. If I remember correctly none of them did a real test, by trying the same amount of the same herb, one decarboxylated and one not.
But I can't read the links you posted they do not work.
If you look up top of this thread 6 people have already agreed that THCA is not a strong as THC. Maybe you should reconsider your beliefs or try the experiment as I stated, then comment.
BTW the real secret to preventing sleepiness is to eat herb that is speedy and up, like Haze. If you eat a couchlock Indica you will fight the sleepieness all day.
I have been cooking and making herb and resin candies for more then 30 years, and I can state absolutely that unheated herb or resin is no where near as potent as the same decarboxylated. I have done this dozens of times.
BTW, not that it matters but Rob Clarke was here yesterday and I asked him what he thought and he laughed and said are you joking? He says he knows heating helps potency. You really need to repeat the experiment and then say which is stronger THCA or THC, makes no difference if it is pure or in herb or resin eat both heated and not and then say again what you find. If you want I can also redo the experiment, and post my results, but I doubt they will change. I have been making the most potent resin candies for decades, 1 or 2 grams of my FMCD resin per candy heated in ghee, squeezed and strained, toss the resin, use the ghee mix with enough pure cocoa powder and powdered sugar to make it almost solid. I use as little ghee as I can to make the candies potent as can be. People here swear they are psychedelic, SOMA, ROB CLARKE, ADAM, and many many more people say they are the strongest, best, most medically effective candies they have ever eaten.
But if I eat the same candy without decarboxylating they are not very potent.

-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

So far truthman it is 8-NO and 0-YES, although to be honest if you voted it would be 1.
Funny how few seem to agree with you.

-SamS

 

[justagrower]

not the same as cooking the resin heads , but even body heat and a little pressure definately improves the raw potency .

 

[Guest]

All you have to do is heat Cannabis or resin in oil or ghee for about 15 minutes, I use a double boiler, the herb pan in a pot of boiling water. This will decarboxylate the THCA to THC and make it much more active. Smoking decarboxylates the THCA.

Ganja Pasha,
THCA is not very active. Some of the THCA may get decarboxylated in the stomach but not most of it or all of it. It needs to be heated. If you purge over hot water it may decarboxylate the THCA.

Truthman,
I see you found three people that agree that THCA gets you high. If I remember correctly none of them did a real test, by trying the same amount of the same herb, one decarboxylated and one not.
But I can't read the links you posted they do not work.
If you look up top of this thread 6 people have already agreed that THCA is not a strong as THC. Maybe you should reconsider your beliefs or try the experiment as I stated, then comment.
BTW the real secret to preventing sleepiness is to eat herb that is speedy and up, like Haze. If you eat a couchlock Indica you will fight the sleepieness all day.
I have been cooking and making herb and resin candies for more then 30 years, and I can state absolutely that unheated herb or resin is no where near as potent as the same decarboxylated. I have done this dozens of times.
BTW, not that it matters but Rob Clarke was here yesterday and I asked him what he thought and he laughed and said are you joking? He says he knows heating helps potency. You really need to repeat the experiment and then say which is stronger THCA or THC, makes no difference if it is pure or in herb or resin eat both heated and not and then say again what you find. If you want I can also redo the experiment, and post my results, but I doubt they will change. I have been making the most potent resin candies for decades, 1 or 2 grams of my FMCD resin per candy heated in ghee, squeezed and strained, toss the resin, use the ghee mix with enough pure cocoa powder and powdered sugar to make it almost solid. I use as little ghee as I can to make the candies potent as can be. People here swear they are psychedelic, SOMA, ROB CLARKE, ADAM, and many many more people say they are the strongest, best, most medically effective candies they have ever eaten.
But if I eat the same candy without decarboxylating they are not very potent.

-SamS

Many thanks for the explanation Sam. I remember vividly the chocolate you brought to the 420 cup last year, man that stuff was potent, now I know why!

I made a batch of QWISO using mostly Trainwreck and Mexican trim back in February, both heady sativas. I purged the alcohol by sitting the pyrex bowl containing the alcohol solution on top of a pan of boiling water. Little bubbles and swirling votices formed in the oil so I would guess it was heated to at least 80 or 90 celsius. The resulting oil was incredibly potent, I would estimate 3x the potency of the dry sift hash I had made from the same material, this stuff was so heady and energising, I couldn't sleep after a day of smoking it and it sent one or two of my friends for a loop. I never understood why it was sooo potent, now I do - the heating.

I shall now vote as I feel I know have enough knowledge to form an opinion!

PS. Sam, if you could post any of your recipes and further details of your cooking methods, I would be very grateful!

 

[RottenDawg]

Sam, if you could post any of your recipes and further details of your cooking methods, I would be very grateful!

Been cook'n my herb for over 22 years. Would love some of your recipes Sam. I use the budder myself. Peace friend...........RD

 

[Truthman]

So far truthman it is 8-NO and 0-YES, although to be honest if you voted it would be 1.
Funny how few seem to agree with you.

-SamS

NO, it's funny how childish you are by changing up words to mean something from what the original argument was about to make it seem like you are winning an argument when in reality I PROVED my point and you didn't.

Anyway, keep believing what you want but I'm seeing your true colors and how big your ego is because instead of just admiting that yes you can eat cannabis raw and feel an effect, you go on about thca vs thc and started a whole other argument. IT'S VERY SAD.

Obviously the thca is weaker than thc but its reason for being part of the thc is to prevent the thc from breaking down. All plants have this mechanism in some form or fashion but once it hits an environment that is slightly acidic, the removal process will begin and thc will be available to the body. This is why fatty foods and lemon juice will help this process happen because they are somewhat acidic and in the case of the lemon juice very acidic as well as other things. The pressure from the stomach churning the food accelerates this process but if don't have enough fiber there won't be as much pressure applied because fiber causes the intestines to do its just better than if you were to eat something like just sugar and fat. The soluble fiber also turns gel like and releases the nutrients slowly which is why you stay high for a long time when you eat herb with whole foods. Heat just does it on another level BUT if you are not precise, you can degrade the chemical. It depends on what you want and a host of other things.

You are trying to compare smoking to eating and started another thread to make it seem like something else instead of what we were really debating about.

Keep doing you but I've constantly seen you do this on here, on OG as well as with David Malmo Levin. Anyway peace out. I don't have any ill will towards you.

What do you say we meet up sometime, maybe at the high times affair in november?.Peace.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Truthman,
I live in Amsterdam so I will be at the Cannabis Cup in November.
I never said THCA found in herb or resin don't get you high.
I did say THC will get you higher.

As for David Malmo Levin, he is a socialist stooge in my book, anti-big business, anti-big pharma, as well as he denied that I was a card carrying member of his harm reduction club, which was a lie. He is also rude and knows little about Cannabis and had lousy buds at his buyers club back then. I have a card #1788, I joined when I was up in Vancouver years ago with my mom, she thought the place was interesting. Whatever....

-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Truthman,
Can you supply me with any reference that shows what % of the THCA will be converted to THC if buds or resin are eaten, either with or without lemon juice and avocado.

Have you ever eaten buds that were heated first to decarboxylate the THC? Did they seem more potent?

Try looking at http://www.cannabis-med.org/english/faq/12-heating.htm

-SamS